Entrevista a Álvaro Cassuto / Interview with Álvaro Cassuto
2005/May/28
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Musically,
I had to start somehow. Evidently I learned piano at home with my grandparents
who played. My grandmother played piano and my grandfather violin and so I
learned violin, piano, etc. at an amateur level. After time, when I was 10/11
years old, upon my own initiative, I became much more seriously interested in
music. On the one hand, because I had time, on the other hand because I was
interested, and, in this sense, I was self-taught for some years. Later, of
course, I realised that I had to learn music properly if I wanted to do
anything in the area of music. The dream of developing a musical career
appeared very early in my mind and I understood that I had to do some serious
study. First I studied with Artur Santos, then Composition with Fernando
Lopes-Graça and, evidently when you study composition, it is natural that you
think you are a composer... As I said just before, a person begins to read and
to write and at school you are taught that this is absolutely indispensable for
the rest of your life, not necessarily to become a writer or poet; some will
be, but not all. But when you study composition and, at least, on my part, as I
was not a virtuoso instrumentalist, I could not make a career as a violinist, I
could not make a career as a pianist, then composition was obviously the way I
had to assert myself. And I was always interested in “instrument” orchestra.
First because obviously, my mastery of the violin and of the piano was
insufficient and, as a result, these were not satisfactory for me; the
orchestra, on the other hand, had a very special fascination for me because of
the sonority that a symphonic orchestra could produce. Within this “ideal”
context and even when I was 10 / 12 years old, I used to frenetically compose
works for orchestra, without knowing the basic rudiments of orchestration or of
composition. But this didn’t bother me in the slightest… at that age things
don’t concern us (...). I later started to learn and I naturally joined the
Juventude Musical Portuguesa. João de Freitas Branco was a great supporter and
invited me to be part of its Administration. It was at this time that I saw
that everything that was modern in Europe was unknown in Portugal or, at least,
rejected. I remember that, for example – this happened in 1958 – Maria de
Lourdes Martins wrote an article in Arte Musical on
dodecaphonic music, stating that the music was incompatible with Latin
sensibility. I remember writing a letter to João de Freitas Branco
contradicting this… because it has nothing to do with being Latin, but is
rather a system of composition; a person can use dodecaphonism to do whatever
he or she wanted and express him or herself in whatever way they desired. As
otherwise also composers like Luígi Nono were impossible, as they were Latin
composers and so on and so forth... Because after the stage of studies with
Lopes-Graça I had gone to Darmstadt, etc. and I knew what was going on in the
rest of Europe; in that way I became known as much for what I wrote about
dodecaphonism as for my works, as a representative of dodecaphonism and as the
first Portuguese composer who became seriously interested in dodecaphonism and
defended it fiercely as if he were saving the homeland... evidently it wasn’t
the case, I know that now looking back, but well... I received a lot of
support, because there were not many composers at that time; I mean, anyone who
appeared and had a minimum of credibility in terms of composition, who had
learned his “métier” with competent people and who had imagination, was
supported, effectively. And there can be no doubt at all that Rádiodifusão
still had the heritage of its musical studies bureau, which was a great source
of encouragement for Portuguese music in the forties and fifties, which always
had to present new works for orchestra. You just have to think of works by Luís
de Freitas Branco or other composers such as Joly Braga Santos which were
written purposely for the Radiodifusão symphonic orchestra.
This then
disappeared… but I still came along at a time when the heritage was still
somewhat alive from that period when Radiodifusão or the National Radio
effectively and systematically encouraged Portuguese musical creation,
especially for orchestra works, because it had the Radiodifusão orchestra (of
the National Radio) at its service and one of its services was precisely to put
on the first performance and present works by Portuguese composers.
Interest
in symphonic writing and Dodecaphonism
Evidently my enthusiasm for the orchestra made me
concentrate on the composition of works for orchestra. My enthusiasm for the
orchestra also meant that I got to know the “instrument” orchestra very well
and from there to the conducting of orchestras was a simple step and a logical
step which was naturally taken. I just continued to compose, I continued to
conduct and, little by little, I reached an obvious conclusion: that the fact
that one knew how to write music was not necessarily synonymous with being a
composer, because to be a composer one had to have something to say.
I studied dodecaphonism which is in fact, relatively simple
to study. At that time it seemed transcendental. But, in retrospective, the
rules of dodecaphonism are the rules of “b,a,ba”, it has an elementary
simplicity, much more simple than tonality. The resolution of chords, the
preparation of dissonant chords and everything else in tonality is much more
complex. Because, fundamentally, in dodecaphonism you can do anything provided
the notes follow the pre-established series. It was, therefore, something
perfectly elementary, but which appeared transcendental due to the fact that it
was something new.
A
composer at the mirror
And I
reached the conclusion that the fact that I had learned how to write and knew
how to write music, knew how to compose and knew the orchestra well, where
things sounded good for orchestra (and this was the result of my enthusiasm for
“instrument” orchestra and of knowing all of the implications of dynamics and
of the conjugation of the various instruments), I became convinced that I was
effectively a composer. It was only some twenty years later, already in the
nineteen eighties, more precisely when, with the orchestra of the Radiodifusão
Portuguesa, that I was asked to do a program in the S. Luís for a symphonic
concert, exclusively dedicated to my work (in which I included, for the only
time in my life, only my own works in the program – something I had never done
as it did not seem appropriate) that I was shook down to earth! At that time I
was living in the United States, where I had already been the musical director
of various orchestras, I had already been the director of the Radiodifusão
Portuguesa National Radio Symphony Orchestra, I was receiving thousands of
scores from music editors which were promoting the works of their contemporary
composers. And naturally I began to read the scores and said “this is no good.”
I would open the first page and say “I’ve heard this a thousand times before.”,
“this is boring.”, or “this is tremendously complicated, no one would have the
patience to conduct a thing like this, forget it!” Then music with graphics,
for which you even have to use a dictionary to first understand what words the
composer used – because, transporting this into... they aren’t semiquavers, nor
demi semiquavers, nor anything we learned: “forget it, I don’t have the
patience for this!” And, after a while, I reached the conclusion: but after
hearing this program, what is it that I am doing within this context of
thousands of composers? Just another person (me) writing music which no one
plays because, ultimately, I don’t have anything to say! I don’t have anything new
to say! Dodecaphonism was new, oh yes, no doubt at all, but only at a given
time. All the experiments being done with “tone clusters”, and with this and
with that and the other were all new. I presented works here in Lisbon, or
elsewhere, which had this novelty, and just as Penderesky’s music was not yet
known, Ligeti’s music was also not known and the music of 10 thousand other
composers wasn’t known, including Varèse.
I wasn’t
known and it seemed as if I had created something new. And, in the end, it was
really nothing new as I had based myself on what I knew and had learned with
other composers. I reached the
very simple conclusion that I had no message to transmit. And, therefore, to be
filling paper with music, with notes to then be stowed away in a drawer, very
sincerely, it was too frustrating. Because I even looked at myself in the
mirror and put myself in the place of those many other composers whose works I
received to possibly present in public and which I simply threw away because
they didn’t have anything new in them, nothing interesting, or because they
were excessively complicated or excessively complex, or excessively difficult
or badly written for orchestra, etc., etc., etc.
Therefore,
my role and my professional activity. In view of the needs which I saw my
country had (and always from a perspective of serving my country), I wanted to
correct the crass errors I found, because I was aware that I had mastered a
certain area. This and the obvious fact of having recognised that in spite of knowing
how to write music, of mastering the technique of composition like someone who
knows how to read and write, it is not this that necessarily transforms someone
into a poet or into a writer (because for this you need to have creative ideas
in the area of composition which, obviously, my works did not reflect),
increasingly distanced me from composition. I still compose, sometimes, in my
head, just as a question of mental exercise. But then I think that it is just
not worth the bother to take the trouble of writing it onto paper. Just three
years ago I wrote a work which had its debut in Israel because I was appointed
artistic director or tutelary maestro of an orchestra in Raanana. As a kind of gesture for the orchestra,
I wrote a short piece, a kind of overture, which I called “For Raanana”, For
Raanana as it is the city where this orchestra is based and I debuted the work
with them. But I saw immediately that it only confirmed precisely what I
already knew!
The idea
has been created that the composer imagines the things in his or her head,
independently of whether they work or not and that even he or she really
dislikes the practical part because they believe that what matters is one’s
imagination and that is enough. And that if the interpreter is not able to fit
it into his or her imagination to perform it, then it is always the interpreter
who is to blame and not the composer.
Several schools of composers who live in an ivory tower have been
created. Especially those who are connected to institutions like Darmstadt
which went towards creating this somewhat, although not so much as others.
There are many Universities that created Departments of Music and of
Composition which are completely divorced from the real world and in fact,
today there is a major divorce between musical creation and its execution.
And this is
a major problem of contemporary music, I think. Because in the past there were
many composers but the Beethovens, the Mozarts, the Haydns, even the Schumanns or Brahms, they were
practical musicians, and not just theoretical! Nowadays, there are many
composers who write whatever pops into their head, irrespective of the physical
contact with its execution, because they don’t have access to the instruments
as composers used to. You just have to realise that the majority of the great
composers were instrumentalists and therefore had the practice. This is
something we have lost.
Then, we
see that these days, at least in erudite music, each composer creates his or
her own language. I mean, formerly. Haydn, for example: his 104 symphonies were
all poured out from the same mould, with the same language and a new symphony
did not have, fundamentally, anything different from the previous symphony.
Orchestra
direction
Meanwhile I
have absorbed myself more and more in the management of orchestras and in the
direction of orchestras, just by force of the circumstances (because I lived in
the United States and in Portugal, I had one foot there and the other here and
I knew that some things worked in the United States – and well! – and I knew
that some things worked in Portugal – and badly! – so much so that the National
Radio orchestras were disbanded and this demise followed a very long period in
which the orchestras were moribund and the level dropped for various decades)
and I watched the slow death of the orchestras. Evidently, as I was the head of
an orchestra and the orchestra was my “instrument”, I just couldn’t stand by
and let this happen. It is like having a piano at home which is, shall we say,
getting rusty. One person accepts perfectly well that it is going rusty and
does nothing. For a pianist this is impossible! I would have to take a stand
and get involved in the problems of managing orchestras! And so, by force of
circumstance, I became a manager of orchestras (what is called “Artistic
Director”). Because something was also happening here that I saw right at the
outset: the problem in the orchestras was not usually a problem in terms of the
musicians, but rather a problem of management; of financial management and of
management in terms of technical competence, of knowing how to do with the
musicians what they can do: or rather, do not demand a repertoire from them
that they cannot play, give them enough rehearsal time and a number of
decisions which imply a knowledge of what is effectively going on.
Contemporary
writing for Orchestra
There is a
problem here on the composers’ side. It is a vicious circle, ultimately.
Perhaps because there isn’t an orchestra today as there used to be in the days
of the Emissora Nacional, in the forties and fifties, or rather, an orchestra
dedicated to presenting works by living Portuguese composers. Living Portuguese
composers first of course. But most of them do not write for the “instrument”
orchestra or, when they do, they use it in an individualistic way, in which it
is not the whole orchestra which is presented together as a formation. Or
rather, they use various instruments of the orchestra; they do not use a
symphonic formation, but rather a chamber formation and, perhaps, more solo
instruments. I, for example, have recognised, as conductor of the Algarve
Orchestra and of the Nova Filarmonia Portuguesa, that composers are very
reluctant to write for a classical formation and then they always need extra
instruments, for this, that or the other. Personally, I think that today people
can still create with a string orchestra without any extra instruments, with
sonorities that surpass anything that has been done before; in my head, I can
imagine a string orchestra sounding in a way Pendereski never did, as Bartok
never did, as Tchaikovsky also never did. The imagination is not limited to the
need to use certain instruments. So composers are, very often, their own worst
enemies by making the work of the interpreter more difficult.
Then,
evidently, orchestras operate according to a certain regime of work and there
are normally 4, 5 or 6 rehearsals for a concert. When you get a work which goes
beyond that which the musicians can master in this space of time, in terms of
difficulty and in terms of composition technique, this makes it difficult from
the point of view of its execution. Therefore, there is, without a shadow of a
doubt, a lack of contact between composers and orchestras. The Americans
invented a system of the “resident composer”, precisely to create in a
composer’s imagination the effective knowledge of the work of an orchestra in
its day to day, so that when he or she composes a work, they will know what instrument
to use and the limitations and vicissitudes of the specific “instrument”, which
is a symphonic orchestra. This is extremely important. Then, there is
effectively too many composers for the lack of “instruments” which are the
orchestras. For example, why isn’t there an orchestra performing regularly and
exclusively to present music from the 20th century in Lisbon? Even
if it were just for 200 or 300 people? Little by little, I guarantee, composers
would begin to write more music for these orchestras. Of course you may ask: is
it justified, for 200, 300, 400 people, to have one “instrument” which costs
“x”? It is a question of perspective.
I also ask myself: is there a need for two football stadiums, in terms
of their occupation, one in front of the other, on the Lisbon ring road, just 2
kilometres apart? Is it justified? Let the football public answer that. I think
that in the cultural field, the existence of an orchestra of 30 or 40 musicians
which, somewhere in Portugal, was dedicated exclusively to contemporary music
is perfectly justified, for example.
I think
that it is obviously a question which should be put to those in charge. But the
main problem which we also have in Portugal is that every time someone new
takes over in the area of Culture, the whole philosophy concerning the
priorities in this area changes. And both Education and Culture, as with other
areas, require continuity. No one thought of pulling down the 25th of April
Bridge (which used to be called the Salazar Bridge) and build a new bridge
which would be called the 25th of April Bridge. They purely and simply changed
its name, but the bridge is the same! But the National Radio orchestras did not
survive this, they had to be terminated. It was necessary to put an end to the
orchestra of the São Carlos National Theatre! It had problems, for sure. But no
one considered taking on the problems which were created by the poor management
in the sixties, seventies and eighties, no doubt about that. Also no one
considered pulling down Belém Tower to rebuild it! However, in terms of orchestras, today we still have that
phantom (I, at least, and I am sure that many musicians in Portugal do too),
that it is possible for an orchestra to be terminated at any time! Just this
year, six months ago, the Beiras’ orchestra (Orquestra das Beiras) was
terminated! As a result, we are constantly seeing the situation where political
priorities, or of the Government, or of the Local Authorities, can put the
survival of an Institution such as an orchestra into doubt. And while we live
with this uncertainty, neither do the orchestras do well, nor do composers
write for them, nor do we create a public for them.
Suitability of the “Orchestra”
model to current musical trends
I
understand your question and I think that this is a false problem, in economic
and cultural terms. First, because every day people are born who have never
heard Beethoven’s 5th symphony (and when I say Beethoven’s 5th
symphony, I can cite another 50 works just as important, and which these people
have never heard because they wouldn’t exist). This is the first question. The
second question is that we live in a world context in which there is – and I am
tired of saying this –, on average, one orchestra for every one million
inhabitants, a symphonic orchestra of one hundred musicians, in round numbers.
And as Portugal has ten million inhabitants, it should have ten orchestras. If
we look at the number of orchestras there are in Spain, in France, in Germany,
in the United States, in fact, in all of the so-called developed countries, we
see that the average is about this, of one orchestra for one million
inhabitants; in some cases more, in others a little less, but the average is
about that, which means that in Portugal we should have ten symphonic
orchestras, or rather: one thousand jobs for musicians. I know well that a
thousands jobs is a lot, but considering that we have a working population in
the order of four or five million, in a population of eleven million, one
thousand jobs in music (considering also that we have around seven hundred
thousand civil servants – and musicians do not need to be all civil servants)
it does not seem excessive to me. But this was if we were at the level of the
European average. And I do not even dream that this may happen in my lifetime
(and probably also not in yours). But we would have six orchestras, five
symphonic orchestras, or rather: two or three in Lisbon, two in Oporto, and
another two or three regional orchestras, etc. There is clearly another problem:
large orchestras in the regions outside of Lisbon and Oporto come up against
the lack of appropriate halls. But I usually say that first come the people and
then the houses for them. You wouldn’t build houses in the desert, in the
Sahara, where people don’t live. Therefore, first there needs to be a “need”,
and then the answer appears to that need. If there are no orchestras, the
places also will not appear. This is the first question in generic terms. I
wouldn’t even say where these orchestras should be based, as this is a
secondary problem. Now, Portugal should be covered by a network of orchestras
to be presented. Then, there is another extremely important aspect: the halls
and orchestras should have an identity, in the sense of a philosophy and a strategy
of creating their own audiences. For example: I wouldn’t look for sardines in
an Italian Restaurant, neither would I look for Chinese food in a Steak House.
Or rather, I would go to a certain restaurant to eat a certain food and I would
not then be surprised if I didn’t find, as I was saying, spaghetti in a
restaurant where they served Japanese food. And so, we should have certain
spaces, where certain instruments of culture would perform, which were aimed at
a certain public. When we speak of a certain public, there is an audience for
the great Romantics, there is an audience for Contemporary music, there is an
audience for many things, and there is an audience for mixed events. Evidently,
I am not so reactionary as to think that the ideal program of a symphonic
concert is an Overture by Mozart, a Concerto by Beethoven and a Symphony by
Brahms, which not be at all that bad. But, while an Overture by Mozart, a
Concerto by Beethoven and a Symphony by Brahms may be perfectly viable, there
are other possible combinations. What does not exist, with rare exceptions
(like the Gulbenkian and the São Carlos), is a space with an identity linked to
that which is held in it. And if we look at the São Carlos and the Gulbenkian,
these are two spaces which, basically, are quite elitist, they created their
elite, they created their image, they created a certain public, in which the
various millions of inhabitants of Lisbon are not included nor with which they
relate to.
The
interest of the Public
And another
extremely interesting thing happened this year, in 2005. The Público,
the Expresso and the Sábado newspapers
distributed hundreds of thousands of recordings of Classical music, when these
publications are not in the business of selling records, but they apparently know
that there is a very vast public interested in Classical Music. And this public
exceeds the number of people who buy newspapers, so they use the records as a
trampoline to sell newspapers and extend their range of purchasers. I ask
myself: where is this public and why is it that this public does not go to
concert halls? Because if this public went to the concert halls, we wouldn’t
have the capacity, all of the spaces would be sold out, and the São Carlos,
instead of doing 40 recitals per year and 5 or 6 Operas, would do 20 Operas and
300 recitals. In 1900 – or rather, the season of 1899 – the São Carlos put on –
and this is perfectly documented in Benevides’ book on the history of the São
Carlos – 100 shows!
At that
time Lisbon would have had around half a million inhabitants and we know
perfectly well that, of that half a million inhabitants, half of them had no
shoes on their feet and who could physically never enter the São Carlos.
Therefore the universe would be, at maximum, 250 thousand people in Lisbon, for
whom the São Carlos put on 100 shows.
With the
universe we have today, in the order of two and a half million, the São Carlos
should, theoretically, put on one thousand shows. Being unable to do this, it
should, at least, do 300 and that is how many working days there are in a year,
as they do in Vienna, as is the case in New York, and as happens in many other
cities. And, however, we see that the São Carlos is occupied for more or less
60 / 70 days in the year; or rather, much less than it did one hundred years
ago!
And in
spite of this, we have to acknowledge that the São Carlos today has much more
money than it ever did. So, we
have a very serious problem. A lack of public, it would seem, its not it. The
newspapers, which are not in the business of selling records, proved that there
is a very vast audience. In fact, the music festival which is held in the CCB
and attracts 60 thousand people in one weekend, 60 mil people, is similarly
proof that we have a public. And the major world orchestras which fill the
Coliseu and which sell out (one week before there are no seats left!) also show
that there is no lack of a public. The Atlantic Pavilion, which sells 16
thousand tickets for its mega productions, also shows that there is no lack of
public. So, what is up?!… There are shortcomings in the management of the
“instruments” which are the orchestras, in the management of the concert halls
and in corresponding to the needs of the public. And it is this divorce that I
recognise and where I am dedicated to making some contribution for it to be
resolved, because we have a serious problem of a divorce between the public
which exists and the entities promoting concerts. This has also to do with
contemporary music. The audience can be extended to contemporary music, but
first the habit has to be created for the population at large to go to concerts
in the places where they are held.
This begins at school, where young people
should be taught to go to concert halls and to listen to concerts.
The Young People’s Concerts, in the United States, which became known in Europe
through Leonard Bernstein’s programs, are the “b,a,ba” of any orchestra.
Because American orchestras are mostly financed by ticket sales and not by the
public sector and, as a result, if there is no audience they close their doors;
it’s as simple as that. Therefore, American orchestras know that they have to
invest in generating their public in order to sell tickets tomorrow. In Europe,
young people know they have to watch football in the Stadiums, they know that
to go to the beach they have to go to the beach, they know that to play tennis
they have to go to somewhere they can play tennis, but when it comes to music,
they just have to buy a record and listen to it at home! And this is a serious
problem which should have already been solved a long time ago and which is
still unsolved, in as much as there aren’t, as a rule, any concerts for young
people, held in concert halls and where young people can be taken from their
school to learn to look for cultural events in the places where they are held.
These spaces also do not have an identity with the creation of a specific
public, as our halls are all multi-purpose... therefore, they do everything and
really, they do nothing.